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I
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gatri
Spain and the southern rim of the EU was
devastated by the 2008 economic crash
and the EU dictated austerity response
its political class suffered severe
losses too and The Surge of anti-
Orthodoxy political forces is a result
of that Spain faces existential threats
too particularly in Catalonia where the
rise and Rise of the separatist cause
challenges the very existence of Spain
as we have known it for centuries but
has the anti- Orthodoxy Force podemos
run out of steam and if it has what will
that mean for the politics of Spain Viva
espa or adios joining us now to discuss
this is Dr Daniel Briggs of the European
University of Madrid Dr Briggs thanks
for uh coming from Madrid for the
show just sketch out for the viewer will
you what the political Horizon looks
like in Spain
today uh well first of all I think we
have to relate what's going on in Spain
with wider problems with what is Western
democracy across Europe most European
countries uh and the United States are
experiencing this crisis uh in what is
um politics uh as a result of being
totally subservient to
um global capitalism um at the moment uh
the landscape is pretty bleak given that
um the left is incomplete tatters having
gone from being something with which was
fairly powerful in the early 80s and
retaining 40% of the vote to the um now
the Socialist Party I think is getting a
bit over 20% of vote what's the
Socialist Party now is that the labor
equivalent and did it take the Tony
Blair new labor cour and is that one of
the reasons why it's sunk It's precisely
taken very a very similar route um in
the early 80s it was grounded in
developing workers rights unions and as
um Spain has gradually opened its doors
to uh foreign investment and
corporations that has disappeared very
slowly and was um exaggerated by the
2007 crisis which was botched by the
Socialist Party and they've paid a big
price for that totally just as a slight
digression uh I I was a political
activist I'm sorry to say when Franco
was still in power when fascism still
ruled in Spain and then the Communist
party was a mighty organization it was
the resistance to Fascism it had a mass
Trade union base obbe an unofficial one
workers committees commission or I think
they were called uh have they
disappeared also they molded into what
became poos in
2014 uh which came about as the kin
movement or the 15m and the indignados
movement which was the 2011 Uprising so
that morphed into what became pmos who
then assumed the uh communist what was
the formist Communist party uh as as
some sort of leftist alternative uh as a
means of trying to Galvanize the energy
created from the 2011 um Uprising so
give us the anat
of pemos who are they would we recognize
them here to whom would we compare them
here uh we would probably they would be
the equivalent of what is the uh labor
party led by uh by Corbin basically a
Corbin pretends to it it is pretends to
be that it tries to be that uh what they
don't have in poos is the backstabbers
that they do have in the labor party
here generally there's a um a decent
party support but that's um unhinged by
the power internal power struggles that
the party has which doesn't do the left
any favors because a lot of the
right-wing press and of course the
conservative party just sit back and
watch while they while they have their
little internal squabbles um which again
delegitimizes them as a a credible uh
political party they had just a week or
so ago a kind of leadership challenge
the leader rode that out but is he
fatally damaged by it uh no I mean that
came about in the postmortem of the fact
that after the first round of elections
in 20 uh December
2015 PA they must won substantial votes
but then in the period between that and
June 2016 lost votes having got together
with un or the United left it was
forecast that they would actually become
uh bigger than the Socialist Party but
they went down but they went down um and
so did the Socialist Party as well
people got they got um worried insecure
about what the kind of politics pmos was
uh was trying to um
suggest and in the end it this led to
this kind of leadership crisis where um
ericon said well maybe I can do things
better this is where we need to take it
forward and uh again the media just
pounced on this and the rightwing
governments just uh just and was that a
left right split then uh similar yeah
yeah I think um ericon felt that there
needed to be more passionate leadership
um and that eaus had has kind of failed
the party but in the end elaia was voted
uh leader again in the recent meeting
and will take forward what uh seems to
be the uh A reduced number of uh party
membership I think the the party
membership has dropped like 50% in the
last yeah my
goodness why haven't they broken through
given the uh fractured nature of the
right and the economic Devastation that
austerity has brought to
Spain uh I think that the aside from the
victory which seemed to put them on
course for becoming this sort of second
largest party in Spain uh the electorate
got got quite worried and bought into
the affiliations with communism uh they
did they got concerned about the radical
changes that eaus was proposing because
he challenged the troa he challenged
Europe he was proposing quite radical
changes to the structure of working life
um of of of the working week to reduce
it so that people were not abused by
companies and uh people I think got
skeptical about whether that was
possible and that comes out in some of
the interviews that we did in the book
there riots and political protest where
the activists couldn't really come up
with an alternative to capitalism they
angry people they didn't like the fact
the country was immensely corrupt but at
the end of the day when it came to an
alternative it they didn't seem to have
one you mentioned Europe um to what
extent does the European Union play a
role in this in Spanish politics and
put Europe very much has Spain by the
color really and that's um not only
linked to being part of the Euro but
also the debt in which Spain is in
Europe because when the crisis came
about uh Spain very quickly borrowed 100
billion from the uh from Europe of which
it is still repaying and this prompted
the um raping of the public services and
the pension schemes and all this sort of
thing and that's another reason why
people have lost faith in the Socialist
Party because they were precisely the
ones that instigated those very changes
as well as quite radical and drastic
shifts to
to labor law is Spain therefore still
divided on Civil War lines uh with half
the country scared of Communism scared
of radical change clinging to an old
idea of Spain and the other half Furious
about their disinheritance there
certainly that Clash of identities which
looks to be more generational than
anything else but uh maybe it's the
problem that uh it it still very young
in its Democratic roots and it so much
has happened to it in over the space of
40 years that uh it really has a kind of
identity crisis in terms of its politics
well it has an existential crisis too
because as someone who follows the
course of separatist movements across
the world it seems to me that the
movement around Barcelona and Catalan
nationalism is possibly Unstoppable and
therefore the Spain that we're talking
about might not actually exist in the
next few years it's possible I think um
that's another thing which undid poos in
that respect because they tried to align
with these nationalist factions to gain
more support and a lot of people were
worried that this it might trigger
referendums or something like this from
the bass country or the catalonians and
a lot of people in certainly Madrid
don't want that because Barcelona and
the catalona area is a massive Financial
Hub so if that was to separate well that
would have dire Financial consequences
for the rest of the country well I think
that's a point that many viewers need to
grasp the catalonian nationalism is
about living in a much smaller country
that's very much more rich and of course
the necessary consequence of that is
that the rest of Spain becomes very much
more poor uh and that must be felt very
keenly where you are in Madrid yeah I
think um there's a lot of worry uh
certainly among the electorate and
people in Madrid that with the potential
severing of Barcelona there could be
major consequences for for the rest of
the country so what happens next uh is
the government secure enough to limp on
or are we facing new elections I think
we have to we have to look at uh what is
probably on the horizon in the UK and
the United States to to relate what is
going to happen in Spain uh the Outlook
looks very Bleak uh a quarter of young
people are out of Education not in
training uh and not working uh 30% of
the population are at risk of falling
into poverty um the rise in short-term
contracts is uh ridiculous in August
last year uh in Madrid 80,000 short-term
contracts were signed of which 36,300 of
those were for work for less than six
days wow uh even in leganes which is a
town just outside Madrid um when there
was a advertisement for 500 jobs because
a new commercial mall was opening 20,000
applicants uh were were were queuing up
to try and and this explains the anger
that you describe so well in your book
this indignado is very powerful W uh
recognizable even here by
English-speaking uh people the IND
Nation the anger of young people in
those circumstances must be palpable
totally I mean I mean you're talking
about uh a country which is experiences
an un unparallel level of corruption uh
it cost the government I think a cost
economy each year something like 40,000
million Euros so it's immense it's it's
it's RI throughout this the social and
political structure and there is a lot
of anger but again we come back to the
same thing a lot of young people are
there they're angry and upset about it
uh can't see an alternative and that we
have to partly place the blame of the
left for trying to Galvanize this energy
no point in blaming the electric Dr
Daniel thanks for coming on board the
Sputnik coming up next the Russian
Revolution the days that shook the world
stay
tuned welcome back to Sputnik the
February Revolution March in our
calendar marked the beginning of the end
of the old regime in Russia and set in
motion the events of Red October
described by the American journalist
John Reed as 10 days that shook the
world Warren BT's film rats may have
been a box office disaster much more
serious than the events at the Oscars
last week but it will stand the test of
time but has the Russian Revolution
joining us to discuss just that is
Professor Christopher Reed no relation
from the history department at the
University of War Professor Reed thanks
for joining us you specialize in the
revolutionary period so let me ask you
about the February Revolution March in
our calendar just describe if you would
what were the characteristics of that
Revolution what did it look like what
were its demands and how did the regime
react to it well the really interesting
things about the February Revolution are
that you have kind of two levels to it
you have what you see and what you don't
see
and in that sense it's very like some of
the revolutions we've had recently the
Arab Spring the color revolutions
there's a lot of action on the street uh
in petrograd there's a kind of
escalation of of Demands from workers
from women uh complaining that there's
no food in the shops there's no bread
supplies uh workers are complaining
about the conditions of work and
mysteriously the biggest Factory in
petrograd is actually shut down um just
just a few days before the actual
collapse of the
autocracy and 20,000 workers are thrown
out onto the streets and they begin to
demonstrate um and that has led uh one
school of thought to say the February
Revolution was the most spontaneous of
revolutions that uh it unfolded from
below the people went onto the streets a
group of soldiers join in they Mutiny
they fire on the police uh more soldiers
join them and the autocracy just
collapses not quite so simple because
after all it's only in one city that
this is going on across a vast Empire
there's 6 million troops at the front
who could be involved and actually the
element which I think is crucial is that
behind the scenes the people who emerge
out of this as the new government are
actually trying to stop that Revolution
From Below uh people don't expect the
autocracy to collapse they don't expect
Nicholas's um AB ation to come quite so
suddenly after all it's only in 1905
he'd survived over a year of Titanic
struggle here in two weeks he's gone um
and that's because he's deserted by the
generals they've made a bit of a hash of
the um certainly the first phase of the
first world war easier to blame Nicholas
than to blame themselves so they blame
him and uh the elites turn uh are
worried because if they see uh people on
the streets demonstrating where will it
stop they want the S they want the
autocracy to maintain their privileges
to maintain their situation it's
threatening them so they move in and
they oppose him too so Nicholas is left
completely
isolated so this uh uh kensky who
becomes briefly then the leader yes tell
us about him well kensky is an
interesting character too he was a young
man only 3637 through 1917 he made his
name as a lawyer defend ending the
victims of sism and he was a very
popular figure he was a member of the
Soviet which was the kind of
workingclass organization that emerged
in the revolution and he was the only
one who got permission of the Soviet to
join the new
government um and he was a man of the
left but of course the immediate problem
they had was the German Army on the
doorstep he didn't want to conduct a
revolution while the German Army was
there because the only outcome of such a
such a series of events would be a
German Victory um and he rises up he's
initially U Minister of Justice in
February saying You must have somebody
reliable to try the S my my task is to
try the S as a criminal uh he won't
Escape if I'm there and the Soviet says
okay we'll let you do that um he then
becomes minister of war and then in July
he becomes prime minister briefly and um
so very briefly I me very briefly for
someone like me who that's right
intimate uh of the Russian Revolution
all of my life uh karinsky is a a big
name and yet he was the leader only from
July until October an extraordinary
short period of time could he have done
anything to solidify that provisional
government and stop what happened in
October uh the complication there of
course is that um you have a attempted
Rebellion by the right by the army uh or
by a section of the army under General
cornov whom kensky himself had appointed
commander-in-chief and it's really
cornos Rebellion that opens the way to
the Bolsheviks the biks not a big force
in July in July Lenin is saying um The
Situation's so bad we must abandon
Soviets we've lost control they've
become counterrevolutionary under kensky
um we must go back to pre-1914 we must
go back underground and it looks very
pessimistic uh and in any Case by at
that stage they probably would only have
got 5 to 10% of the vote um but things
have radically changed around at the end
of uh of August early September when
cornov supposedly attempting to ordered
to S shut down the petrograd Soviet
whether kensky ordered that or not is a
matter of of dispute now um but cornov
certainly was heading for petrograd to
try to shut down the Soviet and possibly
the provisional government and to place
kensky with himself and might he have
reinstated the Zar he would not have
reinstated thear that's one of the
problems the autoc autocracy the
monarchists in Russia had no candidate
Nicholas II was too weak he they didn't
want to bring him back nobody wanted to
bring him back his successor well the S
the the the the sarich was um ill with
his hemophilia um his brother had turned
it down the monarchist had nowhere to go
but what he did want to do was to
introduce use martial law in factories
on the railways um in other words to try
to shut down that social Revolution
which was which was developing all the
time and um by splitting I mean kensky
and Cornela split over this kensky turns
against him arrests cornil off and that
leaves a power vacuum and that's the
power vacuum which I mean I think the
rise of the Bolsheviks really is a
matter of those last 8 to 10 weeks it is
an extraordinary thing there are decades
when nothing happens and we
when decades happen the biks very
definitely did have a candidate and they
had a program uh distilled in three
simple words peace land bread yes and by
then that's what the masses not just in
petrograd but across the country were
demanding well that's right uh the the
problem arises that Lin's understanding
of those terms was different from the
terms that we that the people had
themselves um Lin knew that if there was
peace there would be a War so he knew
that peace meant Civil War um to think
that you could actually improve the
supply situation by a further
revolutionary disruption was was
misleading or naive and in fact by
Spring of 1918 Lenin is saying well who
what idiot would have thought you could
do that and basically he was um and the
land issue they um wanted to nationalize
the land and um that was bolic policy
but what they did was actually
effectively to
acceed to the Takeover which The
Peasants were themselves conducting so
it was it was Lin has the credit of
being the only uh leader I think in the
uh political Spectrum on the left who
was prepared to go along with what the
people themselves were doing the idea of
all power of the Soviets was something
which came from deep in the popular
movement as well the um the the second
or Russian Congress of Soviets which was
when the revolution took place place the
body to which um Power was taken as it
were when they overthrew the provisional
government was already committed to all
power to the Soviets even uh when they
were elected um several weeks before so
they' come to petrograd specifically to
to to decree all power to the Soviets of
course the irony of that is that um the
sadness and the tragedy of the October
revolution in my view that the first day
of the seizure of Power by the Soviets
is the first day of the rapid decline of
the Soviets in in 12 months 12 months
down the line the Soviets are so totally
under the thumb of the Bolsheviks that
they've lost popular representation
don't have time to debate that point
because i' like to debate it but the uh
the the key question and I think if with
your permission we'll bring you back in
October to discuss the events of October
but the last question I've got time for
now is need the Bolsheviks have taken
power could the provisional power have
stabilized itself and uh kept uh
basically a non-communist uh but
revolutionary power going I gave you a
very simple unacademic answer
no I don't think they could I I they
were doomed do you think I think I think
they were doomed and that uh what people
wanted was an all all party government
of the left including menx SRS um a
number of those were already in the
provisional government um a a government
of consilia National popular
consiliul in classes particularly at
this stage they wanted they wanted the
the workers peasants soldiers and um if
I was in charge of celebrations in
Russia today uh which uh it's going to
be very interesting to see how they
celebrate it would be that massive
popular energy which comes out in 1917
that doesn't need parties it throws up
the leadership they have their own
agendas they have their own
organizations they have fat committees
they have Battleship committees they
have um um uh Village committees uh
tremendous amount of self-government and
self organization which is going on and
to me that's that's what's so great
about
1917 and it throws up a leadership in
Lenin which is partly sympathetic but of
course Lenin and the Bolsheviks have
their own views as to where they should
take the revolution they're very much
bolic they're very much utopians they're
idealists they want to produce a sort of
socialist caliphate they want to produce
this socialist Utopia which they know
about and try to persuade people whereas
the the the ordinary workers and
peasants The Peasants want the land the
workers want a better life uh they want
more representation they want to work
through the Soviets it's just it's a bit
of a tragedy the way those two come
together but let me book you now for
October in our commemoration of Red
October Professor Reed thanks for
joining us on the
Sputnik and now it's short turn to tell
us what you think through the portals of
social media what's rling gri so the
centinary of the Russian Revolution
euroman and activist says without the
Russian Revolution in 1917 we would
never get even this little democracy it
was important and Roger the Dodger says
1917 was the beginning of the end of
Communism well the first point is
definitely true uh it is now accepted by
social Democrats that social democracy
only came into being in order to stop
the so-called spread of Communism
whether communism died with the Russian
Revolution that would be a much more
tricky uh intellectual uh proposition
though I understand uh what's meant and
the professor in a way was making a
similar was hting that yeah well let's
all tweet that we have time for today
which alas means that's the end of the
show but you can stay in touch with us
on social media Twitter and Instagram
rtor Sputnik or Facebook Sputnik on
Russia today it's goodbye from me and
from me George Galloway it's been
marvelous
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